Libro.fm Podcast – Episode 14: “Interview with Sara Nović”

In this episode, we meet True Biz author Sara Nović. We talk not only about her writing, but also the importance of deaf and ASL representation in audiobooks. In addition to True Biz, Nović is the author of Girl at War and America Is Immigrants.

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The audiobooks we discussed

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Full transcription

[Intro Music]

Craig Silva:

Hi, I’m Craig. Welcome to the Libro.fm podcast where we talk to authors, narrators, booksellers and more.

Karen Farmer:

And I am Karen. This month we got to sit down with Sara Nović, who is the author of the novel True Biz, which has been out for a while, but actually was just re-released in paperback.

Craig Silva:

Yes. And this episode is a little different. Karen, as you can see on video, I’m terrified.

Karen Farmer:

Same. This is a whole different ball game for us, Craig. So for context, for people who are listening to this podcast in the audio format, for the first time ever, we are recording this fully on video to be released on YouTube.

Craig Silva:

Our big premiere. Yes. If you are listening to this on your podcast app, totally fine. The episode absolutely works in audio, but if you feel like it, I do recommend watching the video of it. I think that it is just a fuller experience. So for context, the author Sara Nović is deaf, so we had an ASL interpreter for the episode. So if you do watch the video, you’ll get to see kind of the signing back and forth, and I think it just kind of adds to the experience of this episode.

Karen Farmer:

I totally agree. The interpreter did a phenomenal job and it was so wonderful to be able to be with Sara live and watch her sign. One of my highlights was that we learned Sara and I have the same favorite snack food, so I now know how to sign popcorn, which is going to be helpful. Yeah.

Craig Silva:

Yeah. I also really enjoyed this interview, even though I don’t love popcorn. We got to learn so much about the book and really kind of dive deep into the characters. And also the process of her recording the audiobook was probably one of my, I think, the most interesting things.

So again, for context, when the deaf characters were speaking back and forth, you actually hear the sounds of somebody signing in the background of the audio clips. And it was so interesting, we got to see a video of it. And she, the recording person, I apologize to whatever that job title is, I can’t imagine its recording person told her to wear loud clothing and just her story about going into the booth and all that was really interesting. And if you haven’t listened to the audiobook, I will play a clip of it before the interview starts so you can kind of hear what I’m talking about.

Karen Farmer:

Awesome. Well, without further ado, let’s roll the clip. Let’s play the interview. And as always, you can stick around afterwards to chat with Craig and myself a little bit more about what audiobooks we’re listening to. And we do have some exciting updates about forthcoming episodes of the podcast.

Audiobook clip plays:

“But now he worried that the problems of the boy sleeping in the bed five feet away from him were about to become his problems too. “What are you doing?” Elliot looked at him like he was an alien. “Smoking. You mind?” Austin considered how to answer without coming off prudish. Did he want to get in trouble or catch some secondhand lung pustule? Not particularly, though that wasn’t the real question.

What Elliot was really asking was whether he was a snitch. “You’re going to get caught.” He motioned with his head at the alarm above their door. “Am not,” Elliot said, and turned back toward the window to exhale. Austin studied the rudded skin running down from Elliot’s ear. On his cheek, a strip of stubble had been permanently raised away and an ugly splay of vesicles disappeared beneath the neck of his T-shirt. But so what, even if the stories were true, that didn’t give him free rein to be a dick.

“Whatever. I’m going to dinner.” “Heard she’s already looking for you.” “What? From who?” Elliot laughed, a bit too heartily for Austin’s liking. “I’m messing with you. I haven’t talked to anyone yet. Should have seen your face though.” He dropped the cigarette butt into an old Gatorade bottle and Austin kept his eye on it until he was sure it had burned out completely.

Craig Silva:

Well, nice to see you again. Sara. Thank you for taking the time to meet with us today. This is actually our second time getting to speak with you as we read True Biz for our book club here at Libro. So thanks for making the time twice to talk with us.

Karen Farmer:

Yes, and I think Craig and I both just actually reread True Biz for the second time and it was just as good the second time through. And we also wanted to congratulate you on the paperback edition that’s coming out soon. That’s really exciting.

So for our listeners, we would love for you to introduce yourself and share a little bit about who you are and what you do.

Sara Nović:

Well, thank you so much for having me. Thank you again, and thank you for reading the book again also. My name is Sara and I am a writer and I am also a teacher. I teach creative writing at a couple colleges and I also teach deaf… I teach creative writing and deaf studies.

Karen Farmer:

Awesome. Well, thank you for being here. Thank you for the introduction and we have a lot of questions ready for you today. So I think we’ll just dive in. And Craig, do you want to get us started?

Craig Silva:

Sure. So our first question, you had to see this coming, is about audiobooks. On Instagram, you shared a video of the recording process with you in the booth and you said, “Sound can’t do ASL justice, but I like the additive sentiment.” For folks who haven’t read the book in audio format, I’d love if you can give us some insight into what that process was like.

Sara Nović:

Well, it was really fun to be involved with making the audiobook, because really for me as a deaf individual, I never thought I would have the opportunity to be involved in that process. But I really want to back up and talk about what happened before the book was published.

So as a team, we were ready to talk a little bit more in depth about the different parts of the publication process, and we had all the different processes ready. And I think in the middle of the night, one night I woke up and I was like, “Oh, shit.” I didn’t even think about what to do for an audiobook and how we would make that happen because in the book, on paper, I have different systems for showing different parallels between ASL and English that I can show on paper with the dialogue in written English and how that looks different than the dialogue that would be happening in sign language.

So I was a little bit concerned that if people were listening to the book, how would they know the difference? So first of all, because a lot of it depends on… It depends on who is speaking. It could be important information if there’s someone switching back and forth between the two or if it changes from spoken language to sign language. So I didn’t want it to become confusing because people speaking… Between the people speaking, being able to differentiate what languages were being used. But at the same time, I wanted people to have some feeling within the audiobook as well.

So because part of the goal of the book was to teach people a little bit more about ASL, about what it looks like and feels like. So wanted to create that picture and then thinking of how to involve that in an audiobook, for me, I have to say the audio team… I have to give full credit to them. I cannot take any of the credit because for me, I was really scared of the process and I didn’t know what it was going to look like. So I had kind of put it out there and see if I could get some support with that. And they came back with a few ideas to involve maybe the sound of sign.

When they told me that at first, I didn’t really understand what they meant and they sent me a video of someone, a signer, and they said, “Maybe like that.” And I was like, “Okay.” I was like, “Like what, exactly?” And so I kind of had to force them to really tell me what they mean, like the sound of the signs, your hands on your body, on your clothes, the sounds that you might hear of different kinds of touch or on the mouth as well. So I had never thought about that before, so I was like, oh, okay. Okay, well that clarifies.

And then I was really excited to be involved with the booth and they told me they wanted me to wear loud clothing and I was like, “Okay.” And so I was involved with networking and reaching out to people and doing all of that as well. And I was like… I reached out to some friends, I was like, “I don’t know what loud clothing is.” But anyway, so it was fun because when I was writing the book, I had this picture in my mind where I would see people signing in my head, but it was a different experience for me as well, having that physical experience. So I was like how will I… I had to be like, “How would I sign that sentence?” and kind of take on that role, become the character a little bit. So it was fun as well.

Craig Silva:

Have you gotten any feedback from folks who have listened to the audiobook about how they received it? Because it is quite different than other audiobooks that I’ve listened to. You do do hear the signing, like you said, and apparently you can hear the loud clothing. Have you received any feedback about how it came out?

Sara Nović:

I’m happy I picked the right shirt, but most people who contacted me told me that they liked the experience. I assume if you hate it, you probably wouldn’t email the author. I don’t know. I mean sometimes people do, but most of the people who have been in touch with me about the audiobook have had really positive things to say. They said they enjoyed it and many people told me that listening to the audiobook when they had finished with the book and then… A lot of people told me when they finished the audiobook, they wanted to buy the actual book as well.

Karen Farmer:

Awesome.

Sara Nović:

And then see the picture as well. So maybe those things can connect and create a more streamlined experience.

Karen Farmer:

Awesome. One of the questions that we had, and you mentioned this in your intro, so you are a teacher of deaf studies and of creative writing and True Biz obviously is about a learning institute and there are lots of teachers and students as characters. We were curious how your own experience informed your writing style in True Biz and also the content of the book.

Sara Nović:

Sure. There were many people who had asked me if I was one of the characters… If there was a character that I identified with. And really for me, the fun thing about this book is I had the opportunity to put a little of myself in several characters. And the obvious connection between me and the character Charlie, is that we were both… I grew up in a mainstream educational environment as well, and it felt very isolating and I didn’t meet other deaf people until later in life.

So that experience is similar and that’s a pretty common experience for deaf individuals as well. Most deaf people today are in a mainstream classroom environment and most deaf people have hearing families. Most families don’t learn sign language as well. So all of that, for me, I think I was most of the… I think that’s most deaf people.

But during the writing of the characters, I really became connected more and more with the principal character whose name is February, like the month February. She has a name sign as well. And I also started the book before I had kids and when I was in the process of writing during, and then that kind of changed my perspective and I was able to identify more with the teacher and some of the parents in the book through that process of becoming a parent myself.

Karen Farmer:

That’s super interesting.

Craig Silva:

Thank you for sharing that. Speaking more about the educational components, you mentioned that sometimes the book shows the different signs and in the audiobook you hear it. In addition to that, most if not all chapters start with an actual educational component, whether it’s from an old book or some kind of historical piece, or just kind of a how-to. And I was curious, why did you decide that that was an important piece to have in the book?

Sara Nović:

Yeah, when I started writing the book, I really felt strongly that I didn’t want to teach people about deaf culture. I felt a little bit of a resistance to that, and I wanted to write a story. I wanted it to be fun. And then I gave it to my editor and they had given me back… They had so many questions for me, and a lot of the questions were really related to the way that deaf people interact and the way that deaf people think and our perspective. And so that’s kind of the real reason hearing people have a really limited understanding of our culture and our view of the world.

So I realized that if I wanted people to connect with the characters and empathize with their stories, then I would have to do that educational piece as well. But luckily I had the book set in a school, so I was like, okay, maybe we can play a little bit with the form of the book or the structure of the book and it would kind of be teaching at the same time, but not in a way that interrupts the story or feels preachy.

So I was thinking about how I could design maybe a sign list for different characters and then you have the history and what the landscape of the characters would be and the time that they were in school.

Craig Silva:

Given that in the beginning of your process, you seemed pretty resistant to doing that, but then got the feedback that it might be helpful, now that it’s done and out in the world and you have the book, how do you feel about how it came out given that it wasn’t kind of your original vision for it?

Sara Nović:

I feel happy that so many people have seemed to find the book accessible and when they are finished with the book, people have reported that they want to learn more. So I think that is positive.

Karen Farmer:

Awesome.

Sara Nović:

And I think it was challenging because I wanted to write for two separate audiences at the same time. I felt like I was writing for two audiences. I was writing for deaf people and I wanted deaf people to enjoy the story and see the diversity within the community and the characters. And then writing for hearing people, you know, you kind of had to put in some basic level stuff. So that was a challenge for sure, going through that entire process. And I don’t know if I found the balance. I mean, it was hard and I think the book really works well. And now, I’m sure if I look again, I would change 1000 things, right? But I feel like that’s always how it goes.

Karen Farmer:

Yeah.

Craig Silva:

That’s why there’s so many different editions of books probably.

Karen Farmer:

Yeah. And one of the things that I found so interesting too is that you had the homework assignments or the actual on paper learning that these characters were doing, but there was also so much shown learning, like visceral learning in the body. I think of the scene where Charlie and Austin are walking together and she hasn’t yet kind of learned that she needs to stand a certain distance from him in order to be able to see what he’s signing and things like that, that I had never heard about or been exposed to or really interesting learnings for me. So I thought there was a lot of very unique different ways that you approached teaching people without letting us know that you were teaching us.

Sara Nović:

Yeah. Well, thank you. I think that relates to the character Charlie, and it kind of leads into the deaf community and because Charlie is new as well to the community. So yeah, it’s a good way in, I think, having that character and can kind of follow through her complete immersion within the community, feeling overwhelmed and going through that process.

Karen Farmer:

Totally.

Craig Silva:

Well, speaking of Charlie being one of the many characters in this book, True Biz is told through many perspectives, and I loved getting the singular story through so many different lenses of deaf people and hearing people and teenagers and adults and you got a lot of different perspectives. And can you speak to why you decided to take that particular approach to tell this story?

Sara Nović:

I think one of the best things about the deaf community is our diversity. We are not the same as other kinds of cultures because we all come from different backgrounds. We could be different racial and ethnic groups, different experiences, different places. So there’s just really quite a variety. And I think that’s important because typically if you see deaf characters in movies, TV, films, it’s usually just one deaf person and it’s like, “Hi, okay, here’s a deaf person.” And it’s typically done in a way that feels sorry for the character. So I wanted to create an opportunity to have different kinds of deaf folks within one place. And so maybe we’ll just have our token hearing person, who knows.

But I also… I think because there are so many different deaf people in the book, it gives them the opportunity to have different personalities as well. So many people don’t think about the ways that deaf people… There’s a human behind that person. So we have different behaviors and different quirks and things that we do and personalities, and sometimes deaf people also do drugs and make mistakes and have their lives blown up, but it was really fun too. So it doesn’t always have to be about being this poor deaf person going through their struggle or pitying them. I think having some just regular teenage stuff thrown in there and showing enjoyment in life for deaf people as well.

Karen Farmer:

Well, you mentioned at the beginning of that response, the diversity of the community. And a moment that I found really powerful towards the middle of the book is when Austin corrects Kayla’s signing and she says, “No, have you ever heard of Black ASL?” And that is a huge learning moment for him. That’s a learning moment for Charlie. Their kind of embarrassment about having corrected her carries on for several more chapters. And I started thinking a lot about how much perspective most people probably lack about the deaf community, about sign language in general and got very impressed with and also overwhelmed by the scope of what you had taken on by writing this book. There are so many other things alluded to in terms of money and deafness and how that interacts and age, generations and what their perspectives are. So I was just wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about your process of defining the scope of this book.

Sara Nović:

Yeah, I mean, overwhelming is a good way to describe it, but I think that my writing process was really… I’m not a planner, so I have to think if I sit down and I thought about the scope of the book and how I would explain X, Y, and Z, I think I would’ve never ever written this book.

But I started with the idea of three kids kind of running away from the school, the deaf school, and I just had questions form from there. Where would they go? I didn’t know where they were going to go at that point. And so I thought, “Well, that would be kind of interesting to start a story from a perspective as if they had already gotten away from the school.” And then I kind of backed up and was like, “Well, what’s that situation? I don’t know.” But to make those characters, I wanted to explain why they do the things that they do, and that’s where all of that stuff just kind of got involved and it expanded into the characters that I have now.

Karen Farmer:

Awesome. I loved the opening of the book that you just referred to. I was like, where are they going and who are they and why are they leaving? It was so good.

Sara Nović:

Yeah, that’s the same process I went through. I was experiencing that as I was writing them.

Craig Silva:

Well, luckily for us, we didn’t have to figure it out. We just got to enjoy it.

Sara Nović:

Short, shorter process for the readers, maybe.

Craig Silva:

A little bit. While I was reading True Biz, both times I found myself thinking this would make such a good movie. I want to see this on film. So I Googled True Biz adaptation and it seems like it is going to be a movie or a show or details were hard to find, but luckily for me, I can just ask you. So I’m curious if you have any details you could share with us.

Sara Nović:

Yeah, right now there’s not really anything to… There’s nothing said in stone. We are developing something for TV, a series, and the character Charlie will be Millie Simmonds, I believe, from the Quiet Place movies, and which I think she’s perfect for that. She’s the obvious choice. And most of the time these things don’t actually get made, sometimes, but the process is going along and I’m keeping my fingers crossed and I would love to see it as a movie or on film. I think that would be really cool to have a lot of deaf people represented on screen.

Craig Silva:

Yeah, the only detail I found was who was going to play Charlie and I, like you, was like, “That’s perfect.” She was amazing in the Quiet Place, and that’s a perfect casting. So super exciting. And yes, the thing that we have learned through doing this podcast is that TV and movies is always very up in the air until filming starts, so we will cross our fingers for you as well.

Sara Nović:

Yes. Well, thank you.

Karen Farmer:

Speaking of the media, we were wondering if there are any other authors or artists that you particularly admire and look to when it comes to helping increase representation and knowledge about the deaf community?

Sara Nović:

Yeah, there are really a lot of talented actors. I think it’s possible to start seeing more people kind of coming up on television now and related to books, I think that everyone should read Ilya Kaminsky. She wrote a book called Deaf Republic. It’s a really brilliant work. So I think that’s an important read. And another really cool deaf artist whose name is Christine Sun Kim. She is a visual artist and she also plays with sign language in her art and sound as well. And I think her art would be really fun for people to take a look at or include in some kind of audiobook because she plays a lot with sound as well.

Karen Farmer:

Awesome. Oh, I can’t wait to look all of this up as soon as we get off the call. So Sara, we have a new-ish segment of the podcast that we would like to do with you. Craig and I have been calling this the lightning round and we have five or six very random questions that we will ask you. Don’t think too hard about them, just respond and go on the journey.

Sara Nović:

Okay, I’m ready.

Karen Farmer:

All right. Our first one is perhaps the most random one we’ve ever had. If you had to get a tattoo right now, Craig and I will pay for it. What would you get?

Sara Nović:

Well, I was thinking about recently adding one more tattoo. So I think the one I’ve been thinking about it would be a picture connecting to the birth of my son and the birth mother of my son, because that’s where he is coming from, so.

Karen Farmer:

Awesome. Very cool.

Craig Silva:

If you could have one snack food, only one snack food for the rest of your life, what would it be?

Sara Nović:

Popcorn.

Karen Farmer:

Me too. That’s also my choice.

Sara Nović:

Yeah, I just had some for lunch actually.

Craig Silva:

Is there a special kind of popcorn? Like movie popcorn or cheese popcorn or just any old popcorn will do?

Sara Nović:

Popcorn as a butter delivery system. Yep.

Karen Farmer:

What is a fad or trend from your childhood that you miss?

Sara Nović:

Trapper Keeper?

Karen Farmer:

Yes.

Craig Silva:

Nice.

Sara Nović:

Oh my God, I love it. I wish you could still, I don’t know if you can still buy those, but…

Karen Farmer:

I don’t know either. I wish. I wish you could.

Sara Nović:

I never see them. So I don’t know.

Craig Silva:

Winter or summer and why?

Sara Nović:

That’s a difficult question. I think I would always say summer. Probably in the summertime, I would say winter.

Craig Silva:

When you’re sweating and the air conditioner’s on. Yeah.

Sara Nović:

Right, the window for my… The window of comfort for my body, I would say is very narrow. It’s got to be the right temperature. So…

Craig Silva:

Yes.

Sara Nović:

It’s always too hot or too cold. I don’t know what’s wrong with me, but…

Craig Silva:

I’m very much the same way. I don’t know why I asked winter or summer. I would prefer spring or fall to both of those.

Sara Nović:

Yeah, I think fall would probably be my first option. I think that would be the best.

Craig Silva:

Agreed.

Karen Farmer:

All right, this is the last one. What is your favorite thing to do in your city?

Sara Nović:

Well, I’m from Philadelphia. So everyone is obsessed with sports and football, and right now the Eagles are going to be playing in the Super Bowl. So I like the food.

Karen Farmer:

Awesome.

Sara Nović:

But the thing I really appreciated about Philly is the attitude problem we have. So I really enjoy repping Philadelphia and the attitude that we have about talking about how great we are.

Craig Silva:

I think Libro also likes to represent Philadelphia. This is our second Philadelphia-based episode in a row now. On our last episode, we interviewed Janine Cook, who owns Harriet’s Bookshop, which is also in Philadelphia. So we’re big fans over here as well.

Sara Nović:

Oh yeah, Harriet’s is awesome. We have a lot of really great indie bookstores here, so that’s a good answer as well.

Craig Silva:

Okay. So that is it for lightning round. Thank you for playing along. We have one more similar type question that we call Instagram Storytime, where we pick a random, or not random, we purposefully choose an Instagram post from the guest and ask for the story behind it. For you, about two weeks ago, you posted some beautiful… A black and white photo of a building, and you said that you took the students from the Pennsylvania School for the Deaf to tour the grounds of the residential campus, and the photos were beautiful. And the story that you wrote on the post was also, and I was curious if you could tell us more about that.

Sara Nović:

Yeah. So that area, the campus, was… It was really a visual way for me to think about what the school in the book would look like in the book True Biz, so it was kind of inspired by that. And right now we had high school students at Pennsylvania School for the Deaf, PSD, who are reading the book, and we all took a tour together with the school, and I think that the teacher was running the museum there as well. So they guided us through the tour of the campus and we got to see different parts of the campus and different buildings.

So it was really touching because that campus was really big and they used to have 2000 students attending the school, and now it has shrunk quite a bit. And now they only have 200 students.

Karen Farmer:

Wow.

Sara Nović:

So yeah, it’s not a residential school, it is only a day school for now. The old school had lots of different resources. I’m trying to think. They had a car mechanic program and they had different voc programs. They also had a hairdressing program. And they had obvious academic programs as well. But it’s more just the resources that the school used to have. And also they had more things that were being run by deaf people as well in the past. And now, because of the way that oral education that has a focus on speech and lipreading has kind of taken over the school most of the time, they have hearing faculty, hearing teachers, hearing people in positions of administration at the school.

PSD still has a lot of deaf teachers, but most places have a really hard time finding deaf teachers. They have a hard time getting enough students because the schools have been whittled down and people have been kind of moved to different places.

It was a really beautiful place and facility and it was also a little bit sad at the same time, because the kids were really shocked to see that it was so big and there were so many… They were like, “Wow, all of this stuff was here for deaf people. That’s so cool.” And it kind of made me think a lot about the importance of passing down that history as well, because when we left, there’s no signs or anything saying that this used to be a deaf academy. The old buildings are just kind of sitting there. So I don’t know.

Craig Silva:

This is the saddest thing I’ve ever heard. I should have picked one of the cute photos of your children.

Sara Nović:

I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I really brought the mood down, huh.

Craig Silva:

No, it’s great. I’m somewhat joking. I mean it’s a… I’m glad to know that story, but it is disheartening. Are there institutions that exist that are closer to what that vision was? This one particular one has been, like you said, the headcount is so much lower and it doesn’t exist in that same way anymore, but are there places in the States that that does exist still? Or is this a kind of systematic issue?

Sara Nović:

A little bit of both. So the system has made it really difficult for deaf kids to go to the deaf school because public school has to provide a referral for the deaf residential school, and they don’t want to because then they get paid per student.

Craig Silva:

Right.

Sara Nović:

So many times parents will need to fight for their kids to get that referral. And one of the other reasons that deaf schools have been shutting down or have diminished is because MMR. The MMR vaccine, there are many deaf people who were deaf because they got rubella or measles. It was a side effect of having measles. And now there are less deaf people. But yeah, there are still some deaf residential schools. There are some big deaf schools. We call them the big five. So there’s in D.C., California, Texas. I know there’s more, but I’m not remembering. And there are several who didn’t just shrink in size, they shut down. So we see that and you can see a list of the schools that have shut down in the back of the book as well.

Craig Silva:

Great. Thank you so much for sharing.

Karen Farmer:

Yes. And Sara, I think we have one last question for you. I am required by my coworkers by law to ask you this. What are you reading right now and do you have any book recommendations for us?

Sara Nović:

Right now I am in the middle of reading a book called Black Cake, and I know it was really popular a few years ago, and that’s what I’m reading so far. And I’m trying to think of any good recommendations, something that I maybe have recently finished.

Everything that I’ve read recently has not yet been published. They’ll be published this year, but maybe something to look forward to. One book that I really loved was called Lucky. Lucky Red, it’s called, and I typically don’t read this type of book, but it’s like a western, but it’s also has some queer themes.

Karen Farmer:

Awesome.

Sara Nović:

So it’s a really fun read. And I was like, “Okay, yeah, I’m in it now and I’ve drank the Kool-Aid, I’m ready for Westerners.”

Craig Silva:

How can you say no to queer cowboys? You know?

Sara Nović:

Exactly. Yeah. And then there’s females in there as well.

Craig Silva:

Yes.

Karen Farmer:

Awesome.

Craig Silva:

This happens to me all the time with reading books that aren’t out yet. I went into my local bookstore literally yesterday to get the paper version of a book that I’m listening to, and the person was looking it up on the computer and was like, “This doesn’t come out until April.” And I was like, “Ugh, sorry.” And I just walked out of this bookstore embarrassed.

Sara Nović:

Are you from the future?

Craig Silva:

Yes. Well, thank you so much for your time today, Sara, especially since this is the second time coming to talk to us.

Karen Farmer:

Yes.

Craig Silva:

Yeah, this has been such a great conversation.

Sara Nović:

Yes. I enjoyed it so much.

Karen Farmer:

Well, we’ll figure out a way to get you back here a third time, just in case you weren’t sick of us yet.

Craig Silva:

Yes.

Sara Nović:

Perfect. Perfect.

Craig Silva:

Great. Thank you again.

Sara Nović:

Maybe I’ll write another book.

Karen Farmer:

Please do. Yes.

Sara Nović:

Yeah. And I’ll see you in another year.

Craig Silva:

Perfect.

Karen Farmer:

Perfect.

Craig Silva:

We can’t wait.

Karen Farmer:

Okay. Thanks.

Sara Nović:

Thank you so much.

Craig Silva:

Bye.

Sara Nović:

Bye.

Karen Farmer:

Awesome. Well, thank you for listening to our interview, everyone, and watching us. We feel very awkward. So thanks for sticking with us.

Craig Silva:

Yes. And I was telling Karen before the show that we recorded that episode a little while ago, and I’m like, I hope… I don’t remember what I was wearing. I hope I don’t look horrible. So we’ll see. We’ll see. It’ll be a surprise to me when I go to edit this in a little bit.

Karen Farmer:

Well, as always, I have a question for you.

Craig Silva:

Nope. Nope. I have a question for you actually. Karen, what are you listening to?

Karen Farmer:

Oh.

Craig Silva:

I feel like I always have to go first.

Karen Farmer:

Okay. Okay. That’s fair. I was hoping you would ask this question. I just listened to what will undoubtedly be at least one of my top three favorite books of 2023, if not number one. And I would be bold as to say it is an all-time favorite book.

Craig Silva:

Wow. Those are…

Karen Farmer:

Loved it.

Craig Silva:

Well?

Karen Farmer:

Like, do you want to know the name? It’s called I Keep My Exoskeletons to Myself, which is a long title and I love it. And it’s by Marisa Crane. Let me tell you. This book.

So the premise of the plot is that we’re in a slightly distant future, not so distant future, where the penal system has changed. And if you are accused of a crime, instead of going to prison, you are given an extra shadow. So all of a sudden, everyone has this visual indicator of the crimes that you have committed and there are all of these other punishments associated with it like higher tax brackets and you have to live in certain places and yada yada. That is the world in which we are living, but the book is about relationships and raising a child and grief, and it’s just stunning. It felt like a long poem to me. The writing is just some of the most incredible writing I’ve come across in a long time.

Craig Silva:

I also read this book.

Karen Farmer:

I know.

Craig Silva:

Based off your suggestion, and I also… It was I think the first five star book on StoryGraph for me this year. I agree. This book was amazing. Absolutely loved it. And I think you explaining it as a long form poem is perfect. I think I said to you, you can almost take any line and print it out in a frame and it would be a beautiful print. The prose is just absolutely beautiful throughout all the way through. Really, really great.

Karen Farmer:

At one point I had to stop myself from writing phrases down and highlighting them. Like things that I wanted to keep forever and remember, because…

Craig Silva:

The whole book is just highlighting.

Karen Farmer:

I’m highlighting this entire book. It’s just stunning.

Craig Silva:

Yeah, yeah. So, so good. We will have to see if we can get Marisa on the podcast.

Karen Farmer:

[Singing] Marisa, can you hear me?

Craig Silva:

If you ask me to edit that out, the answer is no.

Karen Farmer:

I would never. I know better. Okay. To prevent me from singing more, what are you…

Craig Silva:

No, no, keep going. Keep going. Actually.

Karen Farmer:

I won’t. I won’t.

Craig Silva:

What have I listened to recently? So like I said, I definitely read Exoskeletons, like you. I also, my other and only five star book this year that I most recently read is Big Swiss, which I also know you read because this has just become our thing now, which makes sense. We do a podcast together about books.

Big Swiss was amazing, loved it. It is heartbreaking. And also laugh out loud funny at points. The gist of it, for listeners, if you are inclined to listen to it, is the main character. Greta is like a transcriber, is that the word I’m looking for? For the like local hippie dippy therapist in Hudson, New York. And you get to learn about all the characters in this town via these interviews that she’s transcribing. And I love that as she’s listening to the recording and transcribing, she’s like interjecting her thoughts on them and pausing it as if it’s a soap opera and it’s about her life and it’s so good. So good. Go get it now.

Karen Farmer:

Yeah. Jennifer Beagin is the author of that book.

Craig Silva:

Thank you for saving me. I was over here like on the side.

Karen Farmer:

I got you.

Craig Silva:

Trying to look it up. So thank you.

Karen Farmer:

And I think she’s written two other novels prior to Big Swiss, and so I have that on my TBR. I’m like I need both of them immediately.

Craig Silva:

Ever growing TBR. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so we teased a little bit at the beginning of the episode that we would talk about what we have coming up next and…

Karen Farmer:

Oh yes.

Craig Silva:

We have got to talk to so many amazing authors, but I have to say that the next two are some of the two that I am…some of the two…two of the people I am most excited to speak with. I think we’ve already mentioned this on the podcast previously, but V.E. Schwab.

Karen Farmer:

Yes.

Craig Silva:

Of a Darker Shade of Magic and Vicious Vengeful and Addie LaRue.

Karen Farmer:

Addie LaRue.

Craig Silva:

Which I think most people know her from. So exciting. It’s finally happening at the end of this month, so can’t wait. And then I don’t think we’ve announced this one, but…

Karen Farmer:

No.

Craig Silva:

We are going to talk with TJ Klune, who I think most people will know from House of Cerulean Sea, but he’s also written his kind of queer superhero Flash Fire novels. And then he has a new one coming out, which I am in the middle of. And it’s so funny and good.

Karen Farmer:

Oh, I’m going to start it tonight. I had another book I was finishing and I’ve been just waiting to crack this open and I cannot wait.

Craig Silva:

It’s so funny. Like you with Exoskeletons, I have highlighted so many things with the note of just lol, like just parts that made me laugh. Can’t wait to learn more about it from TJ himself.

Karen Farmer:

That’s a glowing recommendation. I’m nervous. I get nervous before all of our podcasts.

Craig Silva:

I was just going to say the same thing. I feel that way on most episodes.

Karen Farmer:

So that’s not new.

Craig Silva:

Yeah, even when we’re just talking to a little local town bookseller, I’m always a little nervous.

Karen Farmer:

I know.

Craig Silva:

But at least that episode, it will just be our voices and not video like this.

Karen Farmer:

Oh, don’t have to worry about our outfits.

Craig Silva:

Yeah. I really dressed up for this. For my big YouTube premiere.

Karen Farmer:

This is our formal wear.

Craig Silva:

Yes. This is what I wear to weddings actually. It has a collar. Well everyone go get Exoskeletons. Go get Big Swiss. And if those episodes we have coming up sound interesting to you, subscribe to the podcast.

Karen Farmer:

Oh yes. And if you have… Oh, I ruined everything. We can’t edit this.

Craig Silva:

Oh my God.

Karen Farmer:

It’s a video.

Craig Silva:

Nope. Yeah, this is it.

Karen Farmer:

I just… I got excited.

Craig Silva:

This is our true selves on YouTube.

Karen Farmer:

I got excited about our promo code. We have a promo code, it’s LIBROPODCAST. You can use it to sign up for a new membership and you will get two audiobooks for your first month of membership instead of just one.

Craig Silva:

Yes, yes. Go do that and get Big Swiss and Exoskeletons for the price of one.

Karen Farmer:

Can’t beat it.

Craig Silva:

Well everyone, as always, thank you for watching our podcast this month.

Karen Farmer:

Thank you so much. We’re sorry for our appearance.

[Outro Music]